Marketing Committee Meeting 20191127
Date: 2019-11-27
Time: 12:00 UTC
Venue: irc #idempiere-mc
Called by: Marketing Committee
<barg4barg> Hi all
<druiz> Hi guys
<CarlosRuiz> Hi
<barg4barg> Hi
<barg4barg> will we wait for others to enter?
<druiz> Hmm - there seems to be less and less members attending the meetings each week
<barg4barg> 'normal smart people tend not to care enough for common or public good' ))))
<barg4barg> in absence of external force )))
<CarlosRuiz> :)
<druiz> Carlos changed today the marketing committee wiki to update there weekly the meeting's attendance of each member
<druiz> https://wiki.idempiere.org/en/Marketing_Committee
<barg4barg> i propose adding reputation points to a participant for participation in meeting
<barg4barg> )))
<CarlosRuiz> 3/8 is no quorum - same as past week :-(
<barg4barg> the good news is that probably other things from those articles are true
<CarlosRuiz> let's wait a few more minutes to see if others arrive ...
<barg4barg> maybe to remind 1 day ahead, via mail...
<barg4barg> any way we need this thing start working on regular basis.... in the USA management practices is the following - you start meeting on time anyway
<CarlosRuiz> there are two ways to get quorum - increasing the participation - or decreasing the number of members - or both
<barg4barg> could you consider having for a session a quorum among those who actually attened the session
<druiz> maybe to remind 1 day ahead, via mail... -> I thought about doing that but you have also seen the feedback from mails regarding marketing topics, there's no much interest for what I can perceive
<barg4barg> everything is hard and slow in the beginning
<CarlosRuiz> Pedro and Matt didn't accept the invitation for the marketing forum - and they have not subscribed there
<barg4barg> BTW this tool is for geeks ))) i struggled with getting here... just Carlos' advice on hexchat helped
<druiz> I would suggest to define that there quorum are the participants if there are more than one. I understand people can be busy, but sending an email or writting in the forums that they cannot attend takes 2 minutes, and we could reschedule the meeting if needed
<barg4barg> 15 minutes
<barg4barg> enough?
<CarlosRuiz> sure
<CarlosRuiz> I agree about starting on time - even if there is no quorum
<barg4barg> lets proceed
<CarlosRuiz> but the lack of quorum makes hard to make decisions - we can chat
<druiz> Eugene - while we're waiting. You might have noticed the telegram channel idempiere.official that I created. I wanted to have the idempeire channel but someone has it, I don't know whom.
<CarlosRuiz> to ensure better quorum for next meeting I would suggest to clean the marketing committee from the people not interested in participating
<druiz> My idea is to use it as a centralized channel to summarize daily, or weekly "news"
<barg4barg> but the lack of quorum makes hard to make decisions --> it depends on how you define quorum
<druiz> So, like taking the time to highlight the most important topics that were discussed on Twitter, forums, JIRA, etc ...
<barg4barg> My idea is to use it as a centralized channel to summarize daily, or weekly "news" ++
<CarlosRuiz> well - the committee is 8 and we're here just 3 - that's disappointing on one side - but I'm happy to see Eugene and Diego here consistently
<druiz> The idea came to my mind when Chuck said he does not check JIRA, so he is missing the new features constantly
<barg4barg> to ensure better quorum for next meeting I would suggest to clean the marketing committee from the people not interested in participating ---> you can have a door open but consider quorum only among those who are present
<druiz> I haven't announce it because I'm leaving next week for one week and won't have time to do any of that, if you would like to be a co-admin, let me know and I can grant you an admin role
<barg4barg> what we were supposed to decide on?
<CarlosRuiz> I don't mind the size of the committee - but I would like to have in the list just people really committed :-)
<druiz> it depends on how you define quorum -> exactly my point above, did we agree before that the quorum must be at least 50% of the committee?
<druiz> We can say that there's quorum if there's at least 2 or 3 people, we never defined that actually
<barg4barg> once you have system for reputation points or like you will have better attendance
<CarlosRuiz> :-)
<barg4barg> it ia not a joke )))
<CarlosRuiz> I know - some people just jump when they see money or "points" :-)
<barg4barg> exactly my point above, did we agree before that the quorum must be at least 50% of the committee? -- > do not remember
<ChuckBoecking> sorry late
<druiz> Hi Chuck, welcome
<barg4barg> people just jump when they see money or "points" --> most of people are this way//// leta relax and use this feat
<CarlosRuiz> ChuckBoecking arrived to save the meeting again :-)
<barg4barg> Chuck, hi
<ChuckBoecking> :) so sorry
<CarlosRuiz> we need to send a faster coffee machine to Chuck if we want him to be here at 6AM :-D
<ChuckBoecking> right..
<ChuckBoecking> Eugene saved the day with the "hey get in here" email
<barg4barg> now we can proceed ))
<barg4barg> Diego, you see - reminders do work
<druiz> Instead of the reputation points, we can define under which circumstances is the committee allowed to "invalidate" a member. I don't think a person who raised his/her hand once should be entitled for a life-time membership :D
<druiz> Diego, you see - reminders do work -> I never said they didn't, I said - I don't want to be the one reminding people XD
<CarlosRuiz> well - I think a friendly reminder to check if the committee members still want to be part of the committee and have the time to attend the meetings - explaining that their absence is affecting decision making
<druiz> Guys I would like to propose the following Agenda:
<barg4barg> "invalidate" a member --> carrots are better than sticks)))
<CarlosRuiz> and ask Pedro and Matt if they are part of the committee at least they must sign for the marketing forum
<CarlosRuiz> and attend some meetings at least too :)
<barg4barg> following Agenda --> good
<CarlosRuiz> is important to explain is not a punishment - is just that we need quality over quantity if we want to validate some decisions
<CarlosRuiz> quorum I mean
<CarlosRuiz> OK - agenda?
<druiz> carrots are better than sticks))) -> Is not a punishment, but why would I need an incentive for an activity I actively volunteered for
<druiz> Agenda
<druiz> 1) Define the selection mechanism for the slogan.
<druiz> 2) Next steps. what is stopping current members to contribute more?
<druiz> 3) Trademark guidelines.
<druiz> 4) Next week meeting.
<barg4barg> lts do this
<CarlosRuiz> talking about incentives :-DDD well :-DDD there was a proposal to charge against the funds for monitoring the committee :-DDD
<CarlosRuiz> sorry - I'm interrupting the agenda - agree with the proposed agenda
<druiz> And maybe with the current discussion, 5) How to manage committee members, rules to decide when a person can join (for me everytime) when can the committee decide to inactivate a member
<barg4barg> lets go with#1
<barg4barg> have we had some ideas on #1?
<druiz> Quick question to the present members, next Wednesday I won't be available as I mentioned. Could we schedule next week's meeting for Monday, if that's ok for everyone, otherwise you can have the meeting without me. I would send the survey results via mail
<barg4barg> monday same time work for me
<barg4barg> Chuck?
<ChuckBoecking> Monday is good
<CarlosRuiz> we can do it 1h later to make it easier for Chuck
<ChuckBoecking> early is not the issue
<ChuckBoecking> I have a 5AM meeting that runs late
<druiz> Ok - so next Monday same hour?
<ChuckBoecking> yes
<CarlosRuiz> +1
<barg4barg> +
<druiz> Regarding item #1 - surveyhero, the tool we're using to conduct the poll, has a scoring mechanism based on some calculations to define the top results
<druiz> we could decide to accept their mechanism
<druiz> or we can also decide to go for the ones with more votes
<druiz> You can see survey hero's mechanism here: https://help.surveyhero.com/faq/how-are-scores-calculated-on-the-ranking-question/
<barg4barg> why not especially with regard to the fact we reserved a second thought for committee
<CarlosRuiz> I would suggest to wait for the results - and yes - evaluate different scenarios - we're not stuck with surveyhero score
<CarlosRuiz> do you know how many people have voted?
<druiz> Their scoring calculation is greatly affected by many things
<druiz> for example
<druiz> #1 now has 9 votes
<druiz> but in the 28th place there's one with 11 votes
<druiz> WHen people fill the survey wrongly, it affects some slogans, for example
<druiz> do you know how many people have voted? 40 in total
<barg4barg> so decision for #1 is to use their scoring. i agree
<druiz> around 9 of those, incomplete
<barg4barg> nothong stops us for having 2d round with less options
<CarlosRuiz> not use their score
<barg4barg> from having
<CarlosRuiz> I would suggest - to wait for the results
<CarlosRuiz> and analysis the results with different views
<barg4barg> ok lets wait
<barg4barg> it is easy decision how to score
<CarlosRuiz> I would like to see - the most voted - also if we know the position - maybe we can assign score to the top three of each voter - to avoid the bias when people selected the 30
<CarlosRuiz> but - yes - let's wait for the results
<CarlosRuiz> I hope reading the results we can interpret what community wanted to say
<barg4barg> #2 then?
<ChuckBoecking> polls closed yet?
<druiz> If you guys want, the survey will be open until Saturday 15:00 European time. I can send via mail the result report provided by Surveyhero
<druiz> And we discuss further on next meeting
<CarlosRuiz> good idea
<barg4barg> +1
<druiz> polls closed yet? -> they're open until Saturday
<CarlosRuiz> if we can get more than just the report - we can maybe help with the analysis too
<barg4barg> hi
<druiz> I can share the report and export the results to CSV. xls and PDF
<druiz> that's all that the free version can do
<CarlosRuiz> xls sounds enough
<barg4barg> should we go to #2?
<CarlosRuiz> yes please - we need to close the meeting today at :55
<CarlosRuiz> I have an important appointment next
<druiz> -> 2) Next steps. what is stopping current members to contribute more?
<druiz> I can give you guys some context on why I propose this item
<barg4barg> go on
<druiz> We have discussed here how to attract more contributors, that's the whole goal of this marketing initiative. However, I think before attracting more, we need to identify what's stoping the current community members from cntributing and ease the task of contributing
<druiz> Once we do that, I think it makes more sense to attract more because the "contribution path" will be settled
<barg4barg> my vision regarding #2 is that articles of Drupal guy nailed this problem
<barg4barg> you must have system of benefits and regulate access to them prpportionally to contribution
<druiz> Before that step of benefits and rewards -> From my research and my opinion on what can be addressed soon regarding this.
<barg4barg> go on
<druiz> The project is missing key tools to define what's a valuable contribution, what is expected and how to do it
<druiz> Chuck has mentioned it many times
<barg4barg> +1
<druiz> What is considered a good community plugin?
<druiz> that's not clear
<druiz> before the project clarify such things, there's no transparent way to define a good or top plugin contributor
<druiz> So my idea on this, is the project is missing guidelines. contribution guidelines, Core, plugins, documentation ...
<barg4barg> number of downloads? anyway, in the start you any system of scoring this will work better than absence of it after beginning you can elaborete
<druiz> I think we are not the right team to define those guidelines, that should be intially defined by the technical leading team (in terms of code contributions)
<druiz> We can identify that they are missing and inform to the technical team (Carlos is part of that team so he is informed right away)
<druiz> But what I aim with this point is that we identify those missing tools
<druiz> guidelines might be just one
<druiz> Eugene mentioned once that the website could centralize more the spread information to help people find what they're looking for
<CarlosRuiz> some ideas:
<druiz> I agree with that, that's what I tried with the nre about page
<barg4barg> drupal system of points is wise in terms that there are different ways to contribute/// you can give for a plugin 1000 points and 10 points for each page of documentation///
<druiz> Who gives the points? The community? Anyone? a plugin committee? -> Wordpress has a plugin acceptance committee and they publish only those plugins that follow their guidelines
<CarlosRuiz> some ideas:
<CarlosRuiz> I would love to know the opinions from others, maybe a survey between known people in the community?
<CarlosRuiz> - why don't you contribute more?
<CarlosRuiz> - what the project can do for you?
<CarlosRuiz> - what do you expect from the project as return from your contributions?
<CarlosRuiz> I can answer for myself :-)
<CarlosRuiz> - I don't contribute more because I don't have the time - but I love to contribute in some areas (code) and not so much in others (wiki), sometimes I feel discouraged when I see "Takers" - and even more discouraged when I see a "Maker" stopping from being a "Maker"
<CarlosRuiz> - what can the project do? a better organized community will ease my work a lot - also as we talked in the conference, some paid work here will make it easy too
<CarlosRuiz> - expectation -> project growing - more Takers
<druiz> Another point that we discussed at the conference, stopper: Donors might be discouraged to donate because they have no idea where the money is going. SOlution: publish that info somewhere in the website
<CarlosRuiz> OK - summarizing what I wrote - I would like if we can do a survey - but not open - a survey between people we identify as Makers or Potential Makers
<barg4barg> Who gives the points? --> governing body of sorts. it was clear in these articles
<ChuckBoecking> There are two things that stand out to me: (a) plugin tutorials (2) wiki marks
<ChuckBoecking> I rely super heavily on these: https://wiki.idempiere.org/en/Category:Plug-In_Development
<barg4barg> a survey between people we identify as Makers or Potential Makers --> it will not hurt but do not expect too much... confronting and inconvenient questions do nkot guarantee a meaningful answers
<ChuckBoecking> so.. just to clarify
<CarlosRuiz> that's right - the way to ask is important - to avoid sounding confrontational
<CarlosRuiz> guys - I need to go :(
<ChuckBoecking> We are not solving how to get more plugins - we are solving how to convert more members into makers - correct
<CarlosRuiz> correct
<barg4barg> There are two things that stand out to me: (a) plugin tutorials (2) wiki marks --> so what we need in the beginning is to answear to ourselves what result we see as the most desirable
<CarlosRuiz> good plugins is just one way of being a maker
<ChuckBoecking> We are not solving how to get more plugins - we are solving how to convert more *existing* members into makers - correct
<CarlosRuiz> well - convert *existing* members into makers - I guess that automatically implies also attracting some unknown, but that's also a goal
<druiz> Hmm I thing there are two different things here: One is what Eugene says (how to motivate them to be Makers) and what I'm trying to address first (How to ease the task of contribution to facilitate the path for be a Maker)
<druiz> Initially, I'm not talking about how to motivate, points and so on
<druiz> I would like to know first, how to ease that task ...
<barg4barg> how to convert more *existing* members into makers - correct --> once we have good results in this we can scale this to the world
<druiz> I agree with Chuck, The plug-in development section is extremely valuable, I use it every time I start coding a plugin
<druiz> TRhat's not a motivation, that's a tool that makes my job easier to contribute
<ChuckBoecking> I refer to this page 10 to 1 more than any other page: https://wiki.idempiere.org/en/Category:Plug-In_Development
<druiz> Yeah - me too
<CarlosRuiz> kudos to Jan Thielemann :-)
<ChuckBoecking> It is the single greatest iDempiere developer tool that exists
<ChuckBoecking> and Diego
<barg4barg> I would like to know first, how to ease that task --> again, doing the survey you can end up with some stories about difficulties, time and such
<barg4barg> do not expect too much... people often do not answear correct... there are a lot of tricks in sociology because of this... but it generally ok to ask
<druiz> Guys - I'm sorry we need to leave: My proposal, start with this point on the next meeting, decide how to proceed and so on
<CarlosRuiz> I think next meeting will be mostly to analyze the results of the slogan - but OK to continue this as #2
<barg4barg> if we like we can think on the topic before the next meeting
<barg4barg> * we like we can think on the topic before the next meeting
<druiz> Summary of the day
<druiz> 1) Wait until the poll is closed, I will send the results report via mail to the committee and on Monday we agree on how to proceed.
<druiz> 2) Keep the discussion open on what is topping current members from contributing and how to ease the task for them
<barg4barg> sorrry
<barg4barg> +1
<CarlosRuiz> thanks!!! c u online
<druiz> Thank you guys!
<barg4barg> thank you
<druiz> Chuck are you still writing? I?m not sure if you wanted to say something to me here: "<ChuckBoecking> and Diego"
<ChuckBoecking> +1
<ChuckBoecking> no - just saying the contributions are more than just Jan
